The Sinister Devil (sinisterdevil) wrote,
The Sinister Devil
sinisterdevil

Goal-setting. Facebook debate.

Valerie Velociraptor I get excited when I do goals, then I get discouraged because I have a difficult time recalling exactly everything I want on my list. D:
January 5 at 8:38pm · Like

Mark Fralick Regular reviews are extremely useful. Also posting goals somewhere trey will be often seen
January 5 at 9:51pm via mobile · Unlike · 2

Valerie Velociraptor Though that works well after youve written your goals, it does not help me recall them when im writing down new goals!
January 5 at 11:13pm via mobile · Like

Nicholas Alexander It is difficult to predict exactly what a year will look like (unless you are a prophet or exceptionally predictable - boring). I usually keep an ongoing list throughout the year, and add new goals and alter old ones as the circumstances in life change. In my opinion the most important aspect of goal-setting is becoming clear about aims and objectives, accomplishing specific goals within a certain time frame is secondary to knowing what direction you are heading and which steps and stages are essential to the accomplishment of your Will. But you should not take my advice... I am a no good punk hippie!
January 5 at 11:24pm · Like · 1

Mark Fralick I'd have to disagree. Definition is primary. Otherwise the ego is given free reign to do or not do according to the spurious whims of desire. Intentions are lovely. Commitments hold water.
January 5 at 11:38pm via mobile · Unlike · 2

Nicholas Alexander How does one know it is not the ego that develops the goals in the first place, and then imposes the fear of failure? What if you latter discover it is your Will to do otherwise?
January 5 at 11:51pm · Like · 1

Nicholas Alexander The primary difference between Will and whim appears to be the motivation. It is not my Will to submit unconditionally to the dictates of my ego. And it not simply whim to follow the inspiration which comes from meditation. Definition is important, but secondary to intentions. Without intention, definitions are meaningless. I suppose it is a matter of perspective. I imagine we will always disagree on fundamentals... this is one reason I value your friendship so much Mark.
January 6 at 12:05am · Like · 1

Valerie Velociraptor It's hard to 'stick' to some goals when unplanned things happen, or big changes, or other things that are totally acceptable and in line with your Will, you just didn't know it or had no way to know what it was going to look like. Like say, having a baby being born halfway through the year can possibly change all of your goals, even if you think that all of them are necessary to keep. It's impossible to know what it's going to look like once the baby is here. Sure, most of the goals I've made can work with that, but some of them.. maybe not. D: I'd say that maybe a huge life changing event like that could call for a re-write when that happens? I agree with both perspectives, defining your goals and keeping to them is very relevant and DOES keep the ego in line. It's a very powerful practice that can teach you how important commitment is and can show you also how successful you can be if you stick to your goals. But, there's a darker side to commitment too, like not knowing when something just isn't necessary and you should let it go. Or, like Nick said, it could have been an ego goal. Not everyone is entirely aligned with their Will 100% of the time, you could have made a goal that made sense in January, but then along comes April or May and you realize it's entirely unnecessary and unrelated to where you have ended up in your path NOW. Things happen on the path that draw you closer to your Will, and also make it more clear.. which can change goals? But hey, I'm not really qualified to say anything like this.. Though I changed some of my goals halfway through last year because of our moving that was not decided until we were long past goal making and... All of those NEW goals were kept and/or completed, even though they weren't the original goals for the year.
January 6 at 12:32am · Unlike · 1

Mark Fralick The point isn't to force yourself to do something you don't want, but to be specific in what you are trying to manifest at any point in time. Goals can change, and they should. But they should still be specific. There needs to be a clear focal point or else the energy tends to be dispersed. Goals should be something that you want to do. If, at a particular moment in time, you know you want something, it is helpful to articulate it clearly. You can always go back and reevaluate what you were originally trying to manifest. The whole point is in growing your powers of manifestation, which is accelerated by envisioning specific, measurable milestones that clearly indicate the progress of your intentions.
January 6 at 2:18pm · Unlike · 2

Mark Fralick With regards to whether the ego is making the goals or not, that is besides the point. It doesn't even really matter: the ego will always be involved. It is up to us to accept feelings of guilt or inadequacy. That is a separate challenge. But to say that one should not make specific goals because the ego may be involved is a great excuse to not commit to anything.
January 6 at 2:20pm · Unlike · 2

Mark Fralick By not submitting to the dictates of your ego (or perhaps your higher self for that matter), you are submitting to the dictates of whim and chance. Isn't it better to go forth into the world with intention, rather than be buffeted by the winds of fate? Perhaps when you make a goal, it is the voice of your HGA trying to speak, and their pursuit is one's effort to listen.
January 6 at 2:22pm · Unlike · 1

Mark Fralick How can you have strength in intention if you submit to whim?
January 6 at 2:23pm · Edited · Unlike · 2

Mark Fralick And I agree with you Val. As I said, I agree that goals should be modified and reevaluated. My main contention is that they should be clear and definable when you make or modify them. As you said, they then can serve as a useful guideline to where you are and where you want to be. If something does turn out to be an ego goal, you can choose to let it go once you realize this. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be clear in the fist place in case the motivation is egotistical. Because then the non-egotistical goals will also be unclear...
January 6 at 2:26pm · Unlike · 2

Nicholas Alexander Yes Mark, but you seem have misunderstood me. I never implied that definition was unimportant, just that intentionality precedes specificity (I imagine we can at least agree that one without the other is absurd). Although I am thankful for the confusion, as it provoked an enlightening dialog.
January 6 at 9:48pm · Like

Nicholas Alexander I specifically emphasized the importance of "becoming clear about aims and objectives" which was intended to imply need of "definition." The difference is that "aims and objectives" tend to be more general than specific goals. I tend to develop my goals on the foundation of my objective, the goals (in my opinion) are secondary and should be more flexible. Example: it is my intention to ascend a mountain, from the bottom I plan a course of action, to this rock around the tree to another rock and so on, until I scale the first rock, gain a better vantage-point, and choose a new course of action, altering specific goals but never abandoning the initial intent. I believe it would folly to insist upon following through with the original plan when a more effective route reveals itself. Hence my statement "without intention, definitions are meaningless." Further, since you decided to bring "fate" into the mix, I believe that "fate" precedes intention in importance, for one never knows what may be hiding around the next corner which could change everything... I prefer remain open to the infinite possibilities of the boundless universe. Also (back to intentionality) there seems to be a hierarchy of intention, some intentions are prioritized over others, just as insignificant goals should be more readily sacrificed in favor urgent goals... there is also a substantial difference between short and long term goals. But clearly Mark and I have chosen I represent opposite poles of the yin-yang continuum, and I am curious if anyone has a more moderate perspective, or better yet, more extreme! This is all commentary to your post Anthony? Chelsea, Ryan, Valerie, Mike, Heather, Merilee, Jeffrey, Noah, Clint, Keleigh? Serpents? Anyone? Or just tell me to stop trying to instigate philosophical discourse... but "I just can't help myself." (Sorry for the rant - not really.)
January 6 at 10:46pm · Like · 1

Valerie Velociraptor I was actually just thinking about how in Child Development we talk (as students, colleagues, teachers whatever) about the Process of doing something VS the actual Product and how the Process is far more important than the actual Product. I've always thought that this makes perfect sense. Often times the actual Outcome is not nearly as important as how one arrived to said Outcome. So, naturally, I applied this to the idea of goals because this fits my Reality Tunnel. Anyways, how this would look in Goal Listing/Making/Creating/Whatever is that you focus more on the Process rather than the Outcome/Product. So say.. instead of making a goal that is the Outcome: "I'm going to lose 15 lbs." You negate the Outcome all together and instead make the Goal in a Process-Oriented way: "I'm going to walk 30 minutes every day." "I'm going to stop eating fast food." This clearly fits into the importance of making your goals speciifc and detailed. But, in the Process VS Product Theory if one gets distracted in the Process and this changes the Outcome/Product, this is a good thing. This isn't a bad thing or allowing one's Whim to overpower the Will. It is using the Process to get to an Outcome that may not have been the expectation, but it provided more progress, growth and development than the original Outcome of "losing 15 lbs" represented by the Process of "walking 30 minutes every day." Instead, while on your "30 minute walk every day" you enjoyed the fresh air and nature so much that you decided to start a garden. Your goal to lose 15 lbs by walking 30 minutes a day went completely down the crapshoot, you stopped walking, you didn't lose any weight, but this isn't a bad thing. It's actually a good thing. You found that your 30 minute walk every day introduced you to something you didn't even know you needed/wanted. Something that provoked growth and development out of you. Something that brought along progress in another area. I don't think this is Whim. I think this is Process VS Product. You didn't abandon your lose 15lb/walk 30 minutes a day goal, no, you just realized that isn't what you really wanted.
January 6 at 11:12pm · Edited · Unlike · 2

Nicholas Alexander Some more personal examples. As for the hierarchy of intention: Last year I had attending Burning Man as a goal but not moving out of my parents house. When Valerie and I came upon a large sum of money we debated the options... reflection and meditation prioritize moving. After the move, Fate decided to eliminate access to birth-control, which we superstitiously took as a sign and agreed to take the "risk," and the one time we decided to be "careless" within a month running out of baby-killers, Fate granted us instant impregnation... which it turns out is what we really wanted all along. Will or whim? As for short and long term goals: my ultimate intention is either to open our own school or find an existing institution which respects my progressive libertarian methods of education, we had daydreamed about the possibility of starting something out here but discovered that we are not quite ready and perhaps this is not the right place, instead of settling for one the State or Christian Child Concentration Camps, I chose to deliver pizzas which allows me ample emotional and intellectual freedom to continue developing my philosophy of education (ultimate intention) and provides sufficient income to maintain financial independence from my parents (immediate intention)... as it happens, recent circumstances appear to be providing an opportunity for both intentions that we never could have planned for! For the record, I generally accomplish approximately 93% of my yearly goals, which is success in my not so humble opinion. (Apparently I'm on a good one, thanks to Mark for inspiring a very enlightening ego-reaction!)
January 6 at 11:42pm · Like · 1

Mark Fralick Now you're arguing for the sake if arguing. As long as we agree that goals should be specific, there is no further disagreement. I never argued that goals should be without intention. That seems somewhat obvious to me. Of course you need an intention to make a goal: why would you make a goal that you felt was unintentional? Doesn't make any sense.
And yes, waking 30 minutes a day falls under the criterion of specific, which again, I have no argument against. So what, exactly us the argument about? I must have been mistaken when it appeared to me that you were initially arguing that goals need not be specific... Because it seemed very much that this was the case. Again, nothing against reformulating goals, so long as it is a conscious action. So I'm unclear what the point is. However, as I suspect that you will rejoinder that having a point is useless, then so is further discussion, and I bid you, for the present, hail, and farewell
January 6 at 11:57pm via mobile · Unlike · 1

Valerie Velociraptor I was discussing...
January 7 at 12:04am · Like

Nicholas Alexander I am sorry if you see this as argumentation, Mark. My purpose was to clarify my original statement... not to prove anyone or anything wrong (I actually agree with most of what you said). I just thought I would take the opportunity to better understand the nature intention in the psychology of goal-setting. Thank you for your input. Love and do as you Will...
January 7 at 12:09am · Like · 2

Valerie Velociraptor 93
January 7 at 12:10am · Unlike · 2

Mark Fralick And despite how satisfying it feels, we are not on opposite poles of a yin-yang continuum. You thrive on opposition, and have placed me there yourself, if only to have an arch nemesis to debate with. Question authority. Someone has to be it, and it has fallen to me. I have been a mirror, formed in your image, ever since that night in the dark, with the monster. But that is not who I really am... only an image. The world is not so black and white, and we share much in common.
January 7 at 12:19am via mobile · Unlike · 3

Mike Buford Ok. Importantance.... definition.... meanings....intention..... is it a question of priority or is it a question of which comes first, the chicken or the egg? I think each are equally as important. So in my mind that tells me that intention , definition are one in the same or at least simultaneously arise. But my true question , Mark Fralick, is if being super specific in ur goal setting leads too failure or the missing of that goal. Maybe u guys already covered this part but.... when setting realistic goals... don't u search with in urself what it is u truly wish to accomplish... is this definition? Or is definition being specific on ur goals and trying to get there any which way life gets u there?
January 7 at 12:45am via mobile · Unlike · 2

Mike Buford Oh and Val .... no matter what life always effects the process but its up to u to decide what the goal is. Like u said. Sometimes we are unaware of our wills true path. Sometimes our magic manifests our will behind our consciousness.in which case ur fucked lol .... search ur feelings young Skywalker , ull find ur true will
January 7 at 12:56am via mobile · Edited · Unlike · 2

Valerie Velociraptor Indeed.
January 7 at 12:56am · Like · 1

Mark Fralick Of course you search within yourself what you really want to accomplish when setting a goal. Definition is framing that goal in terms so that you can measure how close you have come. It isn't so much important as to whether you achieved the goal or not, but as using your best guess as a guideline for future modifications. In other words, failure isn't important: what is important is that you are as clear as possible with your intentions at any specific point in time. No muddling about: what is it that you will to do?
January 7 at 12:57am via mobile · Unlike · 2

Mike Buford Ah I completely understand. And nick.... I've never read so much in my life... sad , I know.. I lil overwhelming sometime but very worth while thank u. And u too val.. and u too mark. !!! I love how blunt u are.. it was amusing and a phrase I will hang onto. Definition is primary. When I read nick comments about his goal setting that's exactly what I read... and that time or the duration in which it takes to accomplished such selfdefined goals derived from defined self reflection is to be secondary.
January 7 at 1:07am via mobile · Unlike · 2

Mark Fralick Strive to envision your goal as clearly as possible, with your best understanding of your present situation. Let go of the need to be right in your estimation. It is only a "best guess." You are the only judge. A "failure" of your defined objective is only a failure if you let it be so. Every "failure" is merely an opportunity to learn. From an objective point of view, results are purely informational: there is no right or wrong. There is only correlation between hypothesis and facts.
January 7 at 1:11am via mobile · Unlike · 3

Nicholas Alexander Of course... we agree on all the essentials: Life, Love, Liberty and Light. The polarity comment was meant to imply intellectual dichotomies (which I recognize as arbitrary) not personal opposition... although in retrospect I can see how it may have sounded personal. I take a lot of liberties with my language... perhaps too many sometimes? I have the utmost respect for your opinions, that is why I insist upon wasting your time dissecting the intricacies of Life... I agree that the old black/white game is rather silly... are opinions are more like ripples one the surface of some infinite ocean of spiraling rainbow mandalas... or something like that... perhaps the shadows on the wall of Plato's cave? Either way, I always saw you as a collaborator and never a nemesis... yet I admit I thrive on opposition, which you have always so graciously provided... for that I can not thank you enough! I have perhaps learned more from you than any historical philosopher...
January 7 at 1:26am · Edited · Like · 1

Mark Fralick There is no need for guilt. Having a concrete objective does not require guilt if it is not achieved. Guilt is never the point. The point is to make the best use of information gathered from experience: every failed experiment is a success in the sense of learning what didn't work.
January 7 at 1:17am via mobile · Unlike · 2

Nicholas Alexander Yes! Now this is the conversation I was looking for...
January 7 at 1:18am · Like

Nicholas Alexander Just a little "clarification of definition" and it seems we are all saying the same thing. Now I must find something else to disagree with... I am right! Everyone else is wrong!
January 7 at 1:23am · Like · 4

Anthony Testani This shit got deep! lol Well this is my take on this issue. "Hazy goals creates hazy outcomes" is one such phrase I have heard a time or two. I believe that your goals are exactly that - your goals. If you want to reverse engineer your goals, that is to say, look at ones you have completed this past year, how many of them have been set as intentional, and how many just happened? That may give insight into whether you are fulfilling your goals or not. As I was writing some of my goals, I have to realize that some might be a bit lofty. And so they either need to be chunked down into smaller goals or change the goal itself. I am also struggling with the proper steps and envisioning the goal. Its not that I cannot visualize it happening, but making the steps goals unto themselves without just being "do this, do that and poof!" I have found some deliberation with another person helpful to see if the goals are realistic or not. So, making a board is only a step towards reinforcing aim towards your goals. To me, it is suggesting to your unconscious "programs" on what you want to accomplish and it will do what it knows how to complete that in some way. Your conscious part needs to build the steps or path for your unconscious to follow along, otherwise it will find ways that are unpredictable. As long as the goals are clear, then your unconscious has a clear vision of the goal. I agree, putting them in places where you can see them often is helpful. I imagine reviewing them often is helpful. I have not done that, but I want to do that this year. I tend to lose track as the year goes and things happen that seem to disrupt my progress. And so, yes, creating new goals seems the next logical step, but those might even get thwarted as well. For me, at this stage, it would seem most useful to make small achievable goals as it would be easier to monitor my success. I expect things to throw me off during the year. Whether I achieve all of my goals is difficult to say, but if I achieve some of the main ones, I think I will be happy.
January 7 at 5:55am · Like · 2

Heather Blake I don't feel that there is much to add here that you guys haven't already covered. I definitely feel that breaking your large goals up into a series of small goals is often a wise choice. It has helped me numerous times. So, I have a question for any of you who are still of a mind to discuss the making and setting of goals--------> Have you ever just not known in what direction you wanted to go in your life?
January 7 at 12:27pm via mobile · Like · 1

Nicholas Alexander To Heather's question, my personal response is: First meditate on your general intentions, such as "I would like to be happier, healthier, more compassionate," "I would like to progress on my spiritual path," "I want to prepare for a family, pursue higher education, gain control of my finances," "I am going to take over the world." Then brainstorm a series of smaller achievable goals which lead in these directions, "I will walk more, eat less junk," "I will meditate (or do rituals) at least once a week," "I will start a new book every month (ideally finishing the last one)," "I will summon an army of undead zombie monsters to terrify the masses into submission!" If you latter find that the specific goals are not helping you meet your initial intention, alter your goals to better suit your intentions... At least, that is how I do it.
January 7 at 4:17pm · Like · 2

Nicholas Alexander If you are still having difficult discovering your purpose, I recommend doing a Will Practice asking yourself everyday (or as often as possible) "What do I want out of Life?" and then writing down everything that comes to mind, no matter how realistic or absurd... the purpose is reflection not judgement. Then after a month or so review your ideas and reconsider your possibilities...
January 7 at 4:23pm · Like · 2

Heather Blake Haha...I think I'll meditate on summoning zombies But seriously...I will definitely give that a try, hopefully meditating on my intentions will bring me some much needed clarity.
January 7 at 4:29pm via mobile · Unlike · 1

Heather Blake Also a really good idea. Thank you, Nick.
January 7 at 4:33pm via mobile · Unlike · 1

Valerie Velociraptor I personally think it is totally okay to not know a damn thing about what you want out of life, or what you want to DO with. Not everyone just walks out of the womb knowing they're going to do this or that. Some people, do discover early on what they want. And others just don't. I find, that even if I don't know what the larger purpose is for my life, there are still many little things I want. I wanna go to burning man, I wanna travel to very specific places, I want to see opera, I want to take a class I don't understand at all, I want to eat shark. The more you do the little things, the more you will zero in on what you want. You may find yourself in situations that have common traits. Obviously the ones listed above are totally unrelated, but the more you do, the more you'll find WHY you do those things. And how to get more of it. Getting the experience, you know? I may have never figure out I wanted to teach if I hadn't been doing 'little things' that sounded appealing to me. Then it just sort of happened. I found myself doing these 'things' that involved children one way or another. Eventually I realized all those little things really pointed to my desire to teach. I wanted to do those little things, because I wanted to be with the children. I guess you could call that getting experience. But it's more like, trying a bunch of things, going on adventures, taking classes, going places, seeing people, things, sites, etc. Eventually, you might find what you like about all those things...
January 7 at 11:47pm · Unlike · 2
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